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A place to discuss any and all aspects of Wikidata: the project itself, policy and proposals, individual data items, technical issues, etc.

Please use {{Q}} or {{P}} the first time you mention an item or property, respectively.
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On this page, old discussions are archived after 7 days. An overview of all archives can be found at this page's archive index. The current archive is located at 2022/06.

Amir Temurning oʻzidan oldingi shajarasi[edit]

<Amir Temurning oʻzidan oldingi shajarasi. (Q111870802)>

Tarix  – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ravshanbek Tohirov (talk • contribs) at 06:55, 8 May 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Call for papers: Wikidata workshop at ISWC 2022[edit]

Dear colleagues,

Please find here the link to the Call for Papers for the scientific Wikidata workshop at ISWC 2022. Papers are due on July 29, and the workshop takes place on October 24, online. We look forward to your submissions.

Cheers, Ls1g (talk)

spouse (P26) end cause (P1534) his death (Q105080687) or her death (Q105080700)[edit]

Just noticed a number of spouse statements with these end cause qualifiers (for heterosexual marriages). Is there a specific reason for this? Usually I would add either death (Q4) or death of spouse (Q24037741) on the spouse items depending on who died first. What's the recommended way to model deaths in marriages? Piecesofuk (talk) 09:11, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It seems unnecessary and unhelpful to model marriage in a way that requires us identify the male and female participants. CC @Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) as creator. Bovlb (talk) 14:57, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • When you see end_cause=death, you have to do a search to see who's death ended the marriage. His_death and her_death, answers the question, without the reader having to look at the death dates for the two people involved in the marriage to figure out who died first. Most Wikidata naïve readers will not be aware that death_of_spouse exists, and is the converse of "death". --RAN (talk) 16:41, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): I don't think you're addressing the key point here. The model you propose requires checking the gender of the marriage participants and assumes, not only that both genders are known, but also that one is male and the other female. The check is an unnecessary indirection, and the assumptions, while commonly true, are not valid in the general case. Bovlb (talk) 16:50, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same sex marriages make up a very tiny proportion of marriages, and can be handled any way you want. Same for any other nonconforming relationship. We require gender identification when we have instance_of=human, so gender is not unknown. In your model end_cause=death, we are always left wondering: who's death?, one died, but which one? When we have end_cause=divorce, it is clear both parties divorced. --RAN (talk) 17:00, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): "Same sex marriages make up a very tiny proportion of marriages". While it is true that same sex (and non-binary) marriages are rare, we're on dangerous ground if we choose to design an ontological model that crucially depends on the assumption that they don't exist at all. Why would we want to do that? This is especially the case when the model in question is also inferior for other reasons (compared to Q4/Q24037741). Bovlb (talk) 17:39, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Calling it "dangerous ground" is hyperbole, we already have a half dozen reasons for marriage:end_cause, finding one that fits unambiguously and tersely for non binary marriages is a challenge, but not "dangerous ground". --RAN (talk) 21:40, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wouldn't neutral qualifiers "their death" or "spouse death" be better? Vicarage (talk) 19:12, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note that death of spouse (Q24037741) does exist, and should be used where applicable. An item "death of subject" might be appropriate, if it is indeed the subject of the item who has died. Jheald (talk) 21:43, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"so gender is not unknown" there's ~1312 humans on Wikidata whose gender is unknown, so there's still a possibilty of the gender not being known 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talk) 17:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • We already have massive confusion surrounding "object has role" versus "subject has role" and it will be the same for "death of subject" and "death of object". "Death of subject", I assume would be the person with the Q-number at the top of the page, and the object would be the person listed as spouse? --RAN (talk) 12:37, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Jura1 created that entry in an attempt to clarify the issue. The problem with death of spouse (Q24037741) is the placement, since it appears with information on the spouse, some were interpreting it as the death of the spouse's spouse. --RAN (talk) 21:50, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Their death" unfortunately is also ambiguous, it was suggested at one point in English Wikipedia for infoboxes, but even in that debate people were unsure which of the two parties was "their", the person with the Wikipedia entry, or the person listed as "spouse". The problem was that the information appears next to the spouse name, where we store the marriage information and people were thinking "their" was the spouse. The problem is the balance between being terse and being unambiguous. The best would be "death of the person who is listed at the top of this Wikidata entry and not the person that they are married to". I don't see why we can't have a different set of parameters for same sex marriages. We have multiple options to choose from for "gender=", we can have multiple options for marriage:end_cause. --RAN (talk) 21:14, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • You make a good point about infoboxes. It is tricky to see how to communicate that information tersely yet clearly. I was considering it from the perspective of crafting queries. It makes no sense that one would have to write one query for male-female marriages, and a different query for same-sex or non-binary marriages. That just leads to having them excluded from query results. It also makes no sense to encode the data in a way that requires the query to also check the genders of the participants. Wikidata's ontological model isn't just for infoboxes. We can't have a different data representation for a minority group. It's not at all the same thing as having multiple options for gender, because it is exclusive rather than inclusive. Bovlb (talk) 23:01, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am sure we will come up with a terse and unambiguous version that satisfies all types of marriages, but we have not found it yet. --RAN (talk) 02:29, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's going to be a heavy lift to satisfy "all types of marriage" – none of our proposals or existing representations handle plural marriage (well) – but it's not clear to me that same-sex or non-binary marriages should be regarded as different types of marriage. I'm only distinguishing them here because you've managed to construct an ontological model that doesn't represent them. Piecesofuk's model does not distinguish them. Bovlb (talk) 16:32, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I thought "death of spouse" solved the problem, but if you search for the debate, you will find the objections where at least one person thinks that it means the "death of the spouse's spouse" because it appears under the name of the spouse. The debate about terse vs. ambiguous is still found with "object has role" and "subject has role" which still confounds me. --RAN (talk) 15:32, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We're talking about two different issues here, and I think it's important to distinguish them. The first is: Do we have a data representation that is efficient, unambiguous, and expressive enough to cover all cases? Death (of self)/death of spouse satisfies that, whereas his death/her death fails all three arms. The second is: Is the information clearly conveyed via some interface, such as an infobox? Your concern is that death (of self)/death of spouse is widely misinterpreted, whereas his death/her death is understood by all, at least in most cases. Your concern is valid, and I take this issue seriously, but I don't think we can resolve it at the expense of the first issue. Our mission at Wikidata is not (just) to generate text for humans can understand. Perhaps it would help if you shared this infobox with us and pointed us to the debate; presumably both can be found on one of our many client projects. Bovlb (talk) 18:18, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It only appears clear because you are looking at the paired terms. When you see death of person (Q99521170) in isolation, you ask: "which person?" The person at the top of the page, or the person where the label has been attached, the spouse, where the actual start and stop dates for the marriage appear. Less so with death of spouse (Q24037741), but at the debate we had people assuming it was referring to the spouse's spouse, because of where it appears. --RAN (talk) 06:09, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): It appears that five users (me, Piecesofuk, Infovarius, Vicarage, Jheald) broadly agree on the appropriate data representation here, with only you in disagreement. You appear to be primarily concerned with the effect this data representation has on some infobox. Do you intend to provide any information about this? Setting aside the infobox, do you intend to engage with the more important data representation issue? Bovlb (talk) 17:50, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see that other users "broadly agree", I see them asking questions, and suggesting various schemes, none of which are sufficiently "terse and unambiguous". You said you were worried about "crafting queries" and that "his death" and "her death" might cause errors, do have a query in mind, so we can see what damage is being caused, and how to remedy it? --RAN (talk) 18:10, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    A problem with his death (Q105080687) and her death (Q105080700) is that they are identical. Unless you know English or the handful of other languages stated in the label/description fields how would someone know which one to use? See Piecesofuk (talk) 06:48, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Your question is oddly-phrased, but here is a query I threw together: Who had multiple marriages ended by their spouse's death? - How would you represent that query in your data model? Bovlb (talk) 19:37, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remember, not every human Wikidata entry that was married has an entry for a spouse, even those that do have an entry for spouse, they do not have a start and end date, and even fewer of them have and end_cause listed. When we get all those other elements in place, then we can harmonize end_cause= . --RAN (talk) 00:21, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): It's true that our data are incomplete, and likely to remain so, but that doesn't actually seem like a good reason to select an inferior data representation, so I'm not sure why you bring it up. Do you plan to address any of the points raised above? Bovlb (talk) 01:37, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
At this point we are just repeating our talking points. Enough information is here for third parties to make up their own minds. "Address any of the points": You can look at an infobox yourself, I don't need to link to one, and I don't need to show you a query, we both agree that there is only a small portion of marriages listing spouses, and an even smaller subset with end_date, and an even smaller subset with end_date that actually use end_cause. No query will give any meaningful information because of the inherent incompleteness of the data. My final summary: there is no good end_cause=death that is both terse and unambiguous. I was happy with "death of spouse", but one person was very vocal that it was ambiguous to them as referring to the "spouse's spouse", look for the guy that objected to it in the previous debate over the issue, and convince them. --RAN (talk) 01:43, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Bovlb (talk) 16:36, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this is a possible solution but I think there are problems with both death of person (Q99521170) and death of spouse (Q24037741) that need fixing beforehand. Death of Person seems to be defined by its description and not its statements, also its description seems to contradict its purpose as it refers to the Q-object and not the subject which I believe is what it is supposed to refer to. Also death in office (Q5247364) is currently sub-classing Death of Person which I think is wrong if Death of Person is the opposite of Death of Spouse. Also Death of spouse needs fixing and it is not currently a subclass of death (Q4).
Would it help if Death of Person is renamed as Death of Subject and Death of Spouse is renamed as Death of Subject's Spouse. Piecesofuk (talk) 18:13, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All good points.
"Would it help if Death of Person is renamed as Death of Subject and Death of Spouse is renamed as Death of Subject's Spouse" - Not opposed to that renaming. The intent is the important thing for me.
It makes sense for death in office (Q5247364) to be a subclass of Death of Person, because they are both end causes associated with the subject dying; we need to have Q5247364 because it has a sitelink, but it doesn't need to be an end cause. This feels like it is a separable issue.
"Death of Person seems to be defined by its description and not its statements" - Agreed, but an ongoing problem in any ontology, and arguably separable.
"its description seems to contradict its purpose as it refers to the Q-object and not the subject which I believe is what it is supposed to refer to - Strictly speaking, given that this is used as a qualifier value, it is the subject (Q-item) of the subject (a full statement) or the qualifier, but I'm happy to refer to it as the subject, as that works both ontologically and colloquially. I agree that referring to it as "object", while true in another sense, is confusing in this context.
Do we ever have a need for subject/object end causes for other properties representing human relationships, e.g. doctoral advisor (P184)? Bovlb (talk) 18:57, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Death of subject is as inherently confusing as "Subject has role" and "Object has role", even when shown as a pair, are confusing. I thought subjects were for people and objects for places and things, and so did others based on the usage. You also keep saying we have reached consensus, when we clearly have not. I understand you are eager to end the debate, but I do not think consensus has been reached. Several people have offered their opinions, but they are still offering tentative and diverse solutions. --RAN (talk) 19:08, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The subject is always the Q-item that you are viewing, the objects are the values of each of the properties of that item. The subject will become the object when viewed from another Q-item that uses it as a property value. If I'm viewing the spouse statement of Douglas Adams from within Q42 then Douglas Adams is the subject and his wife Jane Belson is the object. If I view the spouse statement of Jane Belson Q14623681 then she is the subject and Douglas Adams is the object. So since Douglas Adams died first the end cause on Q42 is Death of Person (Subject) and on Q14623681 the end cause will be Death of (Subject's) Spouse (or we could state it as Death of Object). Piecesofuk (talk) 15:06, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps death of spouse (Q24037741) could be paired with "named as" so we know which partner in the marriage pair. Also perhaps a way to mark same sex marriages without having to click on the spouse to look at their gender. --RAN (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Perhaps death of spouse (Q24037741) could be paired with "named as" so we know which partner in the marriage pair." This is a confusing suggestion for two reasons. You seem to be suggesting that when a marriage ends through death, this fact is documented somehow and the dead partner is named in a way we should record. Secondly, the purpose of this is to identify which participant is the spouse of the subject, which makes no sense as it is recorded already. "Also perhaps a way to mark same sex marriages without having to click on the spouse to look at their gender." This seems an orthogonal suggestion. Same sex marriages can already be queried (to some extent), and there are somewhat more than two types of marriage (with respect to the sexes of the participants). Some marriages change category. What problem is this trying to solve? Do you want to mark same sex marriages differently in infoboxes? Are there any other contexts in which we regularly annotate people with their sex? Bovlb (talk) 07:09, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Item documentation[edit]

So now we have all calls for this template removed. When is it planned to be loaded automatically? --Infovarius (talk) 10:37, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It already is loaded automatically on every item talk page — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:35, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But it's not! --Infovarius (talk) 10:52, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@MSGJ: did you really think that I would write this question not checking talkpages? I don't see the template at talkpage either watching or editing it. --Infovarius (talk) 11:14, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I see it displaying correctly on existing talk pages (e.g. Talk:Q79089353) and also on non-existent talk pages (e.g. Talk:Q24546547 above the edit window). We are obviously not seeing the same things! — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:38, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please help with popes[edit]

At Talk:Q19546 we have the official list of popes, but with 266 it is exhausting to fix all the errors. Some are duplicated because of bots, and some early popes have inconsistent start and end dates. I have started with the newest and am working down. You have to edit the entry for the pope to have it fixed in the list. RAN (talk) 23:18, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): for the early popes, be wary that for some of them the historical informations we have is meagre at best. I wouldn't be too suprised if they dates effectively overlap or if their are multiple contenders for the same period of time: it will all depends on the source used. --Jahl de Vautban (talk) 19:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jahl de Vautban @Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) I'd also note that the list on the talkpage is going to seem a little weird before the 1500s: WDQS converts all its dates into "proleptic Gregorian" and doesn't know if they're Gregorian or Julian. It then reports that, via the bot, so eg if you look at John XXI (Q172916), his item reports 1276-09-27 to 1277-05-20, both Julian dates as they should be, but the talkpage list gives 1276-09-27 to 1277-05-27 - seven days difference. The "proleptic Gregorian" date isn't shown anywhere on WD for older Julian dates, just in the query service, so it can get very confusing figuring out what's going on.
There isn't any easy way to correct for this without either manual calculations or some quite substantial changes to WDQS, unfortunately... Andrew Gray (talk) 08:38, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • So sad to see the date problem is difficult to fix, but thanks for figuring it out! --RAN (talk) 01:55, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a nasty gotcha, of which I was completely previously unaware. So there is no way in a query to display the Julian date that is entered on the item-page; and no warning that a conversion has been done. (cf and then compare to the dates of death as shown on the items). That's a recipe for considerable confusion, not least when Wikidata content is reused. And a bug on this has been opened (by users) since March 2020 (thanks @Tagishsimon:), but still no official take or plan from the project team as to what to do about it?
At the very least the documentation at mw:Wikibase/Indexing/RDF_Dump_Format#Value_representation and mw:Wikibase/Indexing/RDF_Dump_Format#Time ought to give a very clear warning about this. But it really ought to be possible to get the Julian-format date, as used on sources and entered on wikidata, out of WDQS. Paging @Lydia Pintscher (WMDE):. -- Jheald (talk) 09:07, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have you noticed that the first pope is not displaying in the list? --RAN (talk) 02:08, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Someone who doesn't understand rank had dicked around with a P31 rank for Peter. Now fixed. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:15, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks to @Melderick:, I've been able to put together a proof of concept query for getting WDQS to display a Julian date - example. It's not very efficient (it would need extended with one OPTIONAL pair every century or so, and ideally would use exact dates not rounded to years), but it does work OK for what it has to do. Not very helpful in this specific case but might be something useful to keep handy for any medieval queries. Andrew Gray (talk) 21:42, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Creation of a new class item for instances of a "performance hall"[edit]

The performing arts community is considering the creation of new class item for the concept of a "performance hall", which would be defined as room within a building that includes the stage and the audience space. This class would be a subclass of event venue (Q18674739). This idea is further described in this document.

We will be meeting on June 23 at 13:00 - 15:00 UTC to discuss these and other venue-related questions. Everyone is welcome to attend (Zoom information). You may also share your thoughts in this discussion thread. Beat Estermann
Vladimir Alexiev
Birk Weiberg
Daniel Mietchen
Klaus Illmayer
Vero Marino
Anju A Singh
Simon Villeneuve
Gregory Saumier-Finch
Gabriel De Santis-Caron
Raffaela Siniscalchi
Aishik Rehman
SAPA bdc
Pictogram voting comment.svg Notified participants of WikiProject Performing arts Fjjulien (talk) 21:27, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly sounds like an item which is missing - good idea to create — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:56, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@MSGJ Thank you for your input. Fjjulien (talk) 17:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The WikiProject Performing arts community met today meeting to discuss this question (see the minutes). There was consensus that a new class item describing a "performance hall" is needed to meet the information needs of the performing arts sector. It will for example for example, make it possible to associating a maximum capacity (P1083) with a specific room as opposed to an entire building. It was deliver cleaner query results and will therefore enable more efficient data reuse.
The suggested description for the concept is:
  • (en) performance hall: "room intended for the presentation of live performances before an audience, generally comprising an audience space and a stage space"
  • (fr) salle de spectacle: « salle destinée à des représentations de spectacles devant public qui comporte généralement une scène et un espace pour les spectateurs »
This concept will be the same as Grand dictionnaire terminologique ID (P9900): 17061281. The Getty Art and Architecture Thesaurus was contacted in advance of the meeting and decided to create a record for the concept: AAT_300449028. The class item will be maintained by WikiProject (P6104): WikiProject Cultural venues (Q107031691).
This discussion and the minutes of the meeting will be documented in the discussion page of the WikiProject Cultural venues. Beat Estermann (talk) 22:21, 31 March 2017 (UTC) Romaine (talk) 10:33, 20 April 2017 (UTC) - working on the cultural venues from a Belgian performing arts database. I am importing this database in a collaboration with this institution. Beireke1 (talk) Beireke1 (talk) 12:07, 2 May 2017 (UTC) - collaborating with Romaine on Belgian data on performing arts venues. Affom (talk) 15:26, 12 May 2017 (UTC) Anvilaquarius (talk) 11:41, 15 September 2017 (UTC) PEAk99(talk) PEAK99 (talk) 20:32, 29 January 2019 (UTC) Boxomi (talk) 22:21, 24 September 2019 (UTC) Antoine2711 (talk) 00:19, 5 December 2019 (UTC) Fjjulien (talk) 21:15, 13 February 2020 (UTC) Vero Marino (talk) 21:15, 13 February 2020 (UTC) Bello Na'im (talk) 08:34, 24 September 2021 (UTC)Pictogram voting comment.svg Notified participants of WikiProject Cultural venues[reply]
I will wait until tomorrow to create the new class item. If you have any thoughts or suggestions about the labels, the descriptions, the alias or the statements for this class item, please share them here. Fjjulien (talk) 17:22, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Salle de spectacle" as well as "performance hall" are widely used in their languages for the whole building as well. There will be lots of confusion. --Anvilaquarius (talk) 09:50, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are lots of buildings which contain more than one performance hall, so I think the distinction is important. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:03, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Anvilaquarius I am too well aware of the confusion that exists with the French expression « salle de spectacle ». Similar confusion is experienced with many terms associated with event buildings and rooms (for example "theatre"). However, as @MSGJ pointed out, many performing arts buildings contain more than one performance space (see National Arts Centre (Q105547738)). Moreover, the performing arts community identified several rationales supporting the creation of this class:
  • Performance halls often have a distinct name from the building.
  • Places announced as locations for live performances are very often performance halls rather than the whole building.
  • Technical information such as room capacity and stage dimensions are specific to each performance hall, not to the building as whole.
  • Many industry datasets hold records of entities that are instances of performance halls.
  • And event venue (Q18674739) is too broad and messy to be used by the industry as an alternative to a conceptually clear "performance hall" class. Among other things, this item has too many subclasses that are not related to the performing arts. It is not clear and specific enough to enable data reuse.
Altogether, this class item will serve many structural needs within Wikidata and it will enable better data reuse by the performing arts industry. Fjjulien (talk) 16:50, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
✓ Done: performance hall (Q112688641) created. Fjjulien (talk) 18:42, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
After originally supporting this idea, I now find that we have auditorium (Q230752) which I think is the same concept? Can they be merged or is there a distinction? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:55, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Fjjulien your thoughts please? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 04:18, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@MSGJ The term "auditorium" is not associated with a clearly delineated concept. Although the Wikidata descriptions appear to be relatively similar to the newly created "performance hall" class, other sources provide broader or narrower definitions.
  • The Art & Architecture Thesaurus describes auditoriums rather loosely as: "Rooms or entire buildings designed for a variety of activities such as would occur on a stage before a seated audience; for rooms or buildings used only for theatrical performances, use "theaters;" for rooms with fixed seating designed for lectures, use "lecture halls.""
  • The entry for auditorium in Encyclopedia Britannica is narrower: "Auditorium, the part of a public building where an audience sits, as distinct from the stage, the area on which the performance or other object of the audience’s attention is presented."
  • The EN Wikipedia article for theater (structure) concords with the entry in Encyclopedia Britannica. It affirms the seating area is “known as the auditorium or the house”.
  • During a web search for the terminology associated with performing arts buildings, I found a typology designed by Alta Integra, which says: “Auditorium or Audience Area (audience) where the audience sits to see performers performing the action.”
As you can read from these various sources there is no consensus on the definition of "auditorium" as a concept. I think it would be fair to say that performance halls can also be known as auditoriums (and I listed this term in the series of English aliases). However, the two items are definitely not close enough to be deemed said to be the same as (P460). If anything, I would rather state performance hall (Q112688641) different from (P1889) auditorium (Q230752).
As to the Art & Architecture Thesaurus's suggestion of using "theaters" for performing arts auditoriums, this concept is usually defined as an entire building - which did not meet our information needs either.
The performing arts community met several times since March 2021 to discuss the modelling of architectural structures. We considered both of these options (auditorium and theatre) along with many other options to represent performance spaces, but none was clearly defining the concept that we needed. In order to achieve conceptual clarity (and data quality), we therefore agreed that it was necessary to create a new class. We are in contact with the Art & Architecture Thesaurus to ensure that the term also appears in the thesaurus. Fjjulien (talk) 14:13, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, no problem, you have obviously thought and researched extensively on this. I agree that auditorium can be used just for the seating area. In general, where there is doubt about the scope of an item, I defer to how the sitelinks describe the item. This also embeds the meaning of the item in different languages. It would be great if there were some sitelinks we could add to the new item. How about performance hall (Q112688641) has part or parts (P527) auditorium (Q230752) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:37, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@MSGJ: I rather chose to state performance hall (Q112688641) has part or parts (P527) audience space (Q112688943). "Audience space" is a clearly scoped, unambiguous term in the Art & Architecture Thesaurus. The term itself is self-explanatory. I thought it was a preferable value over auditorium (Q230752), whose label is fraught with polysemy. I looked at site links various languages that I am familiar and definitions are quite inconsistent. enwiki describes the term as a "room built to enable an audience to hear and watch performances" (which could be interpreted to be the same concept as a performance hall). itwiki defines it as a concert hall. dewiki and eswiki have definitions that are more closely aligned with the concept of audience space (Q112688943). Based on these two wikis (and other sources), it would be fair to state that audience space (Q112688943) said to be the same as (P460) auditorium (Q230752) (and vice-versa). However, for the purpose of clearly communicating the scope of Q112688943, I believe the relationship with audience space (Q112688943) will be more effective. Fjjulien (talk) 13:51, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A colleague of mine has volunteered to explore site links that could be redirected to performance hall (Q112688641). frwiki and rowiki are two good candidates. There might be others.
We also need to find the right site link to Wiki Commons, which could be challenging. The category hierarchy Category:Performance_spaces does not match the class hierarchy of performance hall (Q112688641).
We will finally also have too look for Wikidata items that could be stated subclasses performance hall (Q112688641). @Vero Marino is working on this. I am recommending that we do not state ambiguous "room and/or building" classes as subclasses of Q112688641. For example, concert hall (Q1060829) would not be subclass of "performance hall". However, concert hall (Q10547643), could. In order to optimize data reuse outside of Wikidata, we must be careful not to unintentionally capture entire buildings in our queries. Fjjulien (talk) 14:11, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Occupation: actor ?[edit]

I suggest that we only use actor and not divide it into television actor, film actor, voice actor, stage actor etc. I think they are too specific. Most notable actors have a carriere that includes several (in many cases all) of these fields. Ezzex (talk) 13:34, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The more specific the better I think! If they have done various types of acting, you can add multiple values to the property — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:49, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that using the property actor and adding qualifiers for tv/stage/film is best. Easier to write queries that way, and extra modes, like video game don't require new properties. Vicarage (talk) 18:57, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No it is not. Voice actor is unsurprisingly a subclass of actor. The voice actor specialization is notable, meaning that it has to have its own Q-item, meaning you gain nothing from using a qualifier. I'm with MSGJ on this, I don't know what is the reason for the suggestion, but if has to do with too many items in the infobox, this is better solved on the local wiki. If you don't feel like adding many statements to the occupation, then it should be fine just adding 'actor' assuming you don't remove any more specific statements. Infrastruktur (talk) 12:45, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On Commons and Wikipedia we love intersecting concepts. In Wikidata we have the option to use other properties to go deeper. So for example instance of (P31) is always set to human (Q5) for humans and not man (Q8441) or actor (Q33999), we use sex or gender (P21) and sex or gender (P21) for that. I would continue on that path and use field of work (P101).
Take for example Tom Hanks who has actor (Q33999) and a whole bunch of subclasses: film actor (Q10800557), voice actor (Q2405480), character actor (Q948329), television actor (Q10798782) & stage actor (Q2259451). Shouldn't we just have actor and put the relevant classes ("film acting", "voice acting" etc.) in field of work (P101)? Multichill (talk) 10:14, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that approach is deciding which things count as separate professions and which are only fields of a larger profession. I would find it very strange to replace voice actor (Q2405480) with actor (Q33999), for example, because to me they seem like distinct roles which often have separate names (e.g. Schauspieler versus Sprecher in German, haiyū versus seiyū in Japanese, even English has terms like "voice artist", "voice performer" or "dubbing artist" for "voice actor") and while some actors sometimes do some voice work too, most of the voice artists I know of specialise in that and do very little, if any, standard acting (they're more likely to also be singers than actors).
I do think 18 best-ranked statements is excessive though. Is someone really going to list 18 things when asked what their occupation is? I would say the values which best describe a person's occupation should be set to preferred rank, so if, for example, someone specialises in television work, television actor (Q10798782) is fine, but if they do a broad range of different types of acting, actor (Q33999) should be set to preferred. - Nikki (talk) 05:36, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
P106 is not the conversational answer to "and what do you do?". It - quite reasonably - lists the occupations associated with the subject; such that users can, for instance, query to find items that have a P106 of (some flavour of) actor. In Tom Hanks case, 6 of the occupations are actor, or subclasses of actor. The remainder, writer, director, producer &c &c. It's not clear at all to me what problem would be solved by marking P33999 as preferred. It would, of course, prevent actor subclasses being returned in a query for truthy values. It would, equally, prevent the item from being selected in report looking for, say, truthy voice-actors. And yet Hanks is a voice-actor, and one would reasonably expect his item to turn up when using wdt:. And then, misapplied, Hanks would not be found as a director, producer, writer &c, if actor was set to preferred and other non-acting occupations were not set to preferred. All in all, using rank to ?solve this ?problem seems a poor suggestion fraught with easily forseeable downsides. --Tagishsimon (talk) 06:08, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It would be excellent if someone could set out exactly what the problem here is. Right now the OP says "I think they are too specific" and, err, that's it. If, as I had thought, WD is, in part, about specificity, then a single layer of actor subclasses and 6 actor values on Hanks' item does not seem to me to rise to the level of 'too specific'. Is there a problem? What is it? How does it manifest itself? Who is inconvenienced, and how? --Tagishsimon (talk) 06:08, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright question[edit]

So I have a couple scenarios that I would like to know the answer to, if they're able to be added to wikidata (not as a url but actual data)

1) For ex a phone manufacturer publishes a datasheet for their phone. The specifications on that document (what types of ports, version of bluetooth, screen resolution etc) (I'm guessing that's allowed?)

2) A website like Gsmarena that's already indexed data from datasheets like mentioned above (I'm guessing this is not allowed, as it's data owned by gsmarena, so only a link to gsmarena would be allowed, not actual data copy)

3) Data about a business (Opening hours, adres, phone number, etc..) on their own website (I'm guessing that's allowed)

4) Data about a business (..) on their Facebook/twitter/ig/.. page (I'm used to that being allowed to a certain degree on Openstreetmap, but that obv doesn't have an actual cc0 license like wikidata does. So I don't know about this one)

5) Let's say there is a photo of product box, that photo is on Commons with a CC by SA license. Taking information from that box photo, can that be used in Wikidata?

Thibaultmol (talk) 08:25, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Factual information can't be copyrighted, to meet the threshold of originality you need some sort of commentary. --RAN (talk) 18:38, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Desktop Improvements update[edit]

Making this the new default

Hello. I wanted to give you an update about the Desktop Improvements project, which the Wikimedia Foundation Web team has been working on for the past few years. Our work is almost finished! 🎉

We would love to see these improvements become the default for readers and editors across all wikis. In the coming weeks, we will begin conversations on more wikis, including yours. 🗓️ We will gladly read your suggestions!

The goals of the project are to make the interface more welcoming and comfortable for readers and useful for advanced users. The project consists of a series of feature improvements which make it easier to read and learn, navigate within the page, search, switch between languages, use article tabs and the user menu, and more. The improvements are already visible by default for readers and editors on more than 30 wikis, including Wikipedias in French, Portuguese, and Persian.

The changes apply to the Vector skin only, although it will always be possible to revert to the previous version on an individual basis. Monobook or Timeless users will not notice any changes.

The newest features
  • Table of contents - our version is easier to reach, gain context of the page, and navigate throughout the page without needing to scroll. It is currently tested across our pilot wikis. It is also available for editors who have opted into the Vector 2022 skin.
  • Page tools - now, there are two types of links in the sidebar. There are actions and tools for individual pages (like Related changes) and links of the wiki-wide nature (like Recent changes). We are going to separate these into two intuitive menus.
How to enable/disable the improvements
  • It is possible to opt-in individually in the appearance tab within the preferences by selecting "Vector (2022)". Also, it is possible to opt-in on all wikis using the global preferences.
  • On wikis where the changes are visible by default for all, logged-in users can always opt-out to the Legacy Vector. There is an easily accessible link in the sidebar of the new Vector.
Learn more and join our events

If you would like to follow the progress of our project, you can subscribe to our newsletter. You can read the pages of the project, check our FAQ, write on the project talk page, and join an online meeting with us.

Thank you! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:59, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Join us on Tuesday

Join an online meeting with the team working on the Desktop Improvements! It will take place on 28 June 2022 at 12:00 UTC and 19:00 UTC on Zoom. Click here to join. Meeting ID: 5304280674. Dial by your location. The following events will take place on 12 July and 26 July.

The meeting will not be recorded or streamed. Notes will be taken in a Google Docs file and copied to Etherpad. Olga Vasileva (the Product Manager) will be hosting this meeting. The presentation part will be given in English. At this meeting, both Friendly space policy and the Code of Conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces apply. Zoom is not subject to the WMF Privacy Policy.

We can answer questions asked in English and a number of other languages. If you would like to ask questions in advance, add them on the talk page or send them to We hope to see you! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 21:42, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Describing membership benefits[edit]

For British house museums I'm noting when they are member of (P463) Historic Houses Association (Q5773523). Half the houses offer free access to members of the public who also join the association, half do not, and its a strong split on their website. Any suggestions on how I qualify each statement, some form of reward (P4444) perhaps? Would a new item gratis_entry_for_members be sensible, or use existing terms? Vicarage (talk) 04:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I ended up only adding sites who offered free access to members. Vicarage (talk) 09:45, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if we already have a good model for that. I tried using fee and that seems to be a better option than using payment types accepted. Multichill (talk) 09:56, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Multichill: applies to people (P6001) looks like a useful relevant qualifier here, to use with a fee (P2555) statement. Jheald (talk) 11:43, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I struggled with this a bit as well when trying to model museums that give free access to members of International Council of Museums (Q653054). Right now what i did is create a special item for ICOM membership card (Q58220185) and then use that in combination with payment types accepted (P2851) like what Multichill mentioned (payment types accepted). But i think Multichill's solution to use fee (P2555) is probably better, because you're not paying with the card, you're getting free access because of your membership of the organization. Also, some museums tend to give a discount instead of free access, something that we could also model with fee (P2555). So yeah, fee (P2555) in combination with member of (P463) seems like the best solution. Husky (talk) 10:18, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Adding on to what @Jheald: is mentioning: applies to people (P6001) would be useful indeed. For example, some museums (like Stedelijk Museum Schiedam (Q2779535)) give free access to residents of the city where they're located. Husky (talk) 10:22, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WDQS backend update meeting rescheduled[edit]

Hi all! The online community meeting for the Wikidata Query Service backend update has been rescheduled for Monday June 27, 2022 at 18:00 UTC (link to the meeting).

The topic of the call will be the testing of the backend alternatives and the Blazegraph migration, and this will be also an opportunity to discuss the approach and the details, and to ask other questions about the Blazegraph alternatives work - such as how the Blazegraph-specific features and capabilities will (or will not) be supported. This will also be the last chance to talk to Andrea Westerinen, our Graph Consultant, before her contract expires! You can find more info about the latest WDQS backend updates here.

My sincere apologies for those who showed up last time, only to find the meeting to be canceled. As you know we were forced to cancel last-minute because of several people (me included) being ill, this time we hope it will go better. :)

See you there! Sannita (WMF) (talk) 11:18, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Named after[edit]

When an item 1 is named after an item 2, the field "named after" is filled in.

With regard to item 2, can we know if it is eponymous, i.e. if it is used to name an item ?

For example: 470 Kilia is named after Kiel.

Is Kiel used to name an asteroid? Nothing says it. Io Herodotus (talk) 11:56, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well yes, something does say it, but for the most part only via a SPARQL report. The thing about WD is that it is linked data, and the full picture only emerges when the content of links to an item are considered alongside links within the item. There are good reasons why there is no reciprocal property for 'named after' ... consider Queen Victoria, after whom a huge number of things are called ... there's nothing to be gained by adding all of them to her WD item. Much better to point each instance of a thing named after her, at her item. WD is very much not wikipedia; one should not expect all information about an item to be within the item. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:20, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you.
That could be a good reason. However I think an item could be added, in the style of "award received", it could be "honour received". In many cases it could be useful (Kilia for instance).
What is a SPARQL report ?
--Io Herodotus (talk) 14:22, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is, for sure, easy to imagine the new property which could point from the source (person, thing) which gave its name to whatever it gave its name to. But as I say a) it's not necessary and b) it invites the compilation of long lists of property values within an item record, which for all sorts of UI and technical reasons is a bad thing. So - with some dishonourable exceptions (cough tributary (P974) and inflows (P200)) - WD does not encourage reciprocal properties in situations in which there are very-many to one ratios within the datasets to be linked.
SPARQL is the query language used to produce reports from wikidata; a SPARQL report interface for wikidata is at
Here, by way is example, is a report showing all main-belt asteroids whch are named after someone or something, together with a link to and identification of the thing they're named after (press the 'play' button).
If you're serious about wikidata, then knowing how to write SPARQL reports is fairly necessary. There's an excellent tutorial here - - and a helpdesk here - Wikidata:Request_a_query. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:52, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Using Youtube videos for described at URL (P973)[edit]

Youtube channels like and produce detailed videos on particular ships or tanks which are well regarded and curated and as good an introduction to their subjects as a Wikipedia page. Is their any reason I should not add them to the relevant articles using described at URL (P973) as I have at Marcílio Dias-class destroyer (Q110895911) and Churchill (Q696182). Are there notability/quality thresholds I should be aware of? Vicarage (talk) 11:57, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

IMO use of P973 is fairly subjective; if you think a video warrants a link b/c it is encyclopaedic & you regard the source as trusted, then all's good; do it. Consider whether it would be better to create or use an item for the source - 'TheTankMuseum youtube channel' - as a value for a described by source (P1343) statement, qualified with URL (P2699) pointing to the video (and perhaps media legend (P2096) & any other useful qualifiers). Arguably that would provide a better base for curating the set of links to the youtube channel. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:14, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'm trying that for Churchill (Q696182), but I had to make The Tank Museum (Q112706730) a video recording (Q34508) to allow it to be a described by source (P1343), because YouTube channel (Q17558136) wasn't considered a valid source. Allowing group of works (Q17489659) to be a valid source would fix that, and I've flagged it. Vicarage (talk) 12:54, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please migrate this property[edit]

Statistics Indonesia area code (P1588) should be migrated as identifier because the code is unique, published by Statistics Indonesia (Q3449895), a government department responsible for statistics. I've asked this at Wikidata:Identifier migration/1 but no response there. Hddty (talk) 13:22, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately there are 1335 non-distinct values as shown in this report — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:54, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@MSGJ By migrating, hope that it will motivate editors to fix it so it would be like administrative code of Indonesia (P2588) (already an identifier) with few violations. Hddty (talk) 00:22, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merge request[edit]

Could somebody please merge Cotoneaster nan-shan (Q96201349) and Cotoneaster nan-shan (Q70866244) for me? I have never been able to get the merge to work. Thanks! Abductive (talk) 09:04, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You've made just short of 10k wikidata edits. Probably time to work out what's going wrong with merge. What's going wrong with merge? See also help:merge. (And w.r.t. the instance issue, there does seem to be an issue of the two items having different taxon authors ... ideally that should be checked lest it indicate the merge is unsafe (although I see someone has already merged it, as if these things don't matter ... @Maculosae tegmine lyncis: does it not matter?)). --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:22, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Abductive @Tagishsimon I think it does matter. Also the taxon names have different spellings. I am reverting the merge for now. Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Vojtěch Dostál, @Tagishsimon, Plants of the World Online (Q47542613) lists the authors as "M.Vilm. ex Mottet", which constitutes good evidence that the two items are talking about the same entity. Auguste Louis Maurice Levêque de Vilmorin (Q4111351) is given as the author in Cotoneaster nanshan and Séraphin Joseph Mottet (Q21340334) is given as the author in Cotoneaster nan-shan. A hyphen is not considered something that makes a difference in biological nomenclature. Abductive (talk) 20:17, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That all sounds excellent. But here's the thing: merge is the ideal time to fix issues like this. Farming out your merge, having your merge done by someone who doesn't seem to have apprehended that there was an issue here to address, is suboptimal. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:30, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've tried and failed to merge items. I'll just wait until the merge widget or whatever it's called is improved. Abductive (talk) 03:57, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Abductive Effectively, you have proven that these are different taxon names, each with a different author. I am now more convinced that these are different taxon names. Indeed, Worldfloraonline keeps them separately : and . If you think they are synonyms (and you have sources showing that), you can join them with taxon synonym (P1420), but please do not merge them. Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 05:54, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They are the same, as they have the same authors. PoWO is the gold standard for flowering plants. But I will have no objections if you adjust the items as you propose above, and leave Cotoneaster nanshan as the rump item. All I wanted was to have only one item to add a wikilink to once I create the article on the English Wikipedia. Abductive (talk) 06:10, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Abductive I am on thin ice here as I am not a taxonomist, I just try to follow local Wikidata rules and some of them are pretty complex. Maybe @Succu would care to comment on this?Thanks Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 15:44, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Merged. BTW: Be carefull with any database. --Succu (talk) 05:32, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Club was formed after a merger of two others club[edit]

Hello. Example, AEK Larnaca F.C. (Q291447) was formed after a merger of EPA Larnaca FC (Q2317850) and Pezoporikos Larnaca FC (Q2277220). I can show in EPA Larnaca FC (Q2317850) and Pezoporikos Larnaca FC (Q2277220) that they merged together to form AEK Larnaca F.C. (Q291447). See Q2317850#P576. But how can I show in AEK Larnaca F.C. (Q291447) that was created after the merger of the two other teams? Philocypros (talk) 15:31, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can also use merged into (P7888) but I'm not aware of an inverse property to this — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:00, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
merged into (P7888) is about a subject that was dissolved and merged into the other object, that existed previously. It's not the same case. In my example A and B merged together and created C. Both A and B were dissolved. Philocypros (talk) 00:51, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
replaces (P1365) and replaced by (P1366)? Ghouston (talk) 10:55, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You mean to use replaces (P1365) to item C, with values A and B; Philocypros (talk) 12:20, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and replaced by (P1366) to items A and B with value C — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:22, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Towards documented SPARQL queries[edit]

SPARQL queries are essential to explore the Wikidata graph. Right now, each wikiproject has some specific queries in the project pages. Users share their queries in the weekly newsletter and many user stores queries in their own user page. That's great but there is a lack of documentation for queries.

In Documented queries, I propose an approach to create wiki pages to document queries. I provide a first example : User:PAC2/Query/Gender and labels for properties whose values are instances or subclasses of human in French.

I think that the documented queries approach is complimentary to existing initiatives such as {{Query page}} and Wikidata:Showcase Queries.

Of course, there are many open question. If relevant, we could move User:PAC2/Documented queries to something such as Wikidata:Documented queries. Maybe it would be also relevant to have a specific namespace for documented queries such as Wikidata:Queries:.

I would be happy to have feedback about this proposition. PAC2 (talk) 18:34, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really seeing it. And it's not clear what the need is that you're trying to fill. My experience of writing and using reports for my own purposes, and my experience on Request a Query meeting the wants of users there, suggests that, in general, report specifications are fairly highly specific and nuanced, making it vanishingly unlikely that a library of reports will be of much use. It's very unlikely the report I want will be in the library; or if it is, because there is such comprehensive coverage of reporting needs, it's unlikely I'm going to be able to find it. So "library in which you can find the report you want" is just not a happening prospect.
If instead the purpose is exemplar reports, we have Wikidata:SPARQL query service/queries/examples, which is very well linked from the WDQS UI - has a very high profile - but is very very little maintained, suggesting there's not much user interest in collecting and collating reports. Were effort to be put into exemplar reports, improving that page might be more worthwhile. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:07, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I actually see a need to collect queries related to specific fields, but this is already done by domain specialists. --SCIdude (talk) 07:13, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Use of the terms 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' on WD[edit]

I have noticed there are several items that uses both words in description or label. Do you others think this is something that should be avoided? Or are the terms within the scope of our policy of NPOV? --Trade (talk) 18:59, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Does WD have an NPOV policy? If so, not easy to find. Whether or not, WD data should be NPOV. On this issue, the BBC style guide says "Avoid pro-abortion, and use pro-choice instead. Campaigners favour a woman's right to choose, rather than abortion itself. And use anti-abortion rather than pro-life, except where it is part of the title of a group's name."[1] That seems to be a sensible approach. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I assume there is a policy? People have definitely been banned for it before here. --Trade (talk) 20:18, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Help:Description has related content, but it's not a formal policy. —MisterSynergy (talk) 20:39, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is actually an unreasonable policy, because it's predicated on "use the language that one group uses for itself and then not the language that another group uses for itself". Why is this NPOV? —Justin (koavf)TCM 01:39, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, whatever you think of the issue, this doesn't seem neutral. Consider if we followed some hypothetical FOX News policy, no idea if it actually exists, and called one side "pro-abortion" and the other side "pro-life"; I'm assuming everyone would agree that is a bad idea. Although actually, I don't even know if pro-lifers object to being called "anti-abortion". 17:56, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So, what? You think the BBC does not strive to be impartial, you think they have a dog in the race? And here you are giving us some sort of bullshit equivalence argument. smh. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:02, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC may have a bit of a center-left bias, see Wikipedia (in particular the paragraph quoting Mark Thompson) and mediabiasfactcheck. But that's sort of irrelevant. My stance is just that we should apply the same standards to both sides. Either use both of the euphemisms (pro-life, pro-choice) or use more direct language for both (anti-abortion, pro-abortion-rights). The latter is what the English Wikipedia does, btw. Anyway, I was passing through and did not mean to create trouble, sorry. 18:17, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It will depend on the context, a lot of them are titles of articles. What are the problematic ones? Ghouston (talk) 10:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
pro-life activist (Q61958570) and pro-choice activist (Q63619823). And the items that uses the terms in descriptions of course @Ghouston:--Trade (talk) 21:54, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd prefer labels that mention abortion, i.e., the current aliases, which are anti-abortion activist and abortion rights activist. Ghouston (talk) 10:45, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Have I done it right ?[edit]

Merging Creusa (Q28008079) and Creusa (Q10868993) Io Herodotus (talk) 07:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, you have not! There is a process to automatically merge items. You do not need to manually add/remove each statement and sitelink — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:24, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Io Herodotus let me know if I can help — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:29, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First version of the program of the Data Quality Days (July 8-10)[edit]

Hello all,

A quick update about the upcoming Data Quality Days: a first version of the schedule is published on wiki. As you can see, we will have plenty of interesting sessions taking place during the event, such as:

  • the opening session where you can learn more about data quality and help us choose the topics we will discuss during the 3 conversation slots over the weekend;
  • a bunch of short presentations of projects and tools related to data quality;
  • various presentations from community members about queries, data modelling or cross-wiki issues;
  • a focus on data quality for Lexemes and on Entity Schemas, with presentations and workshops;
  • several slots for editing together, for example a constraint-athon;
  • a fun get-together where we will run quizes and games.

The event takes place online, on July 8-10, and is open to everyone who's interested in data quality on Wikidata. No registration is needed, but you can add yourself to the list of participants. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me.

We're looking forward to discussing data quality issues and processes with you! Cheers, Lea Lacroix (WMDE) (talk) 08:08, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are 53 properties ready for creation[edit]

Hi all

Category:Properties ready for creation lists 53 properties. Is there any way to clear this backlog or is there anything non property creators can do to help? I know a few people who cannot continue their projects until these properties have been created.


John Cummings (talk) 09:51, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We need more property creators. Do you know anyone who could help? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:25, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@John Cummings I'm able to help on a few of those. Which are the ones holding you off? Tag me in the proposal discussions please and I'll be happy to help at least a little. Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 13:38, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiproject for Unesco Intangible Heritage[edit]

I am planning to create a Wikiproject for UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage (Q84036549). It would attempt to formalize the item structure for intangible heritage entries and keep the items on the three lists UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage Lists (Q4435332) updated on Wikidata. If you have worked on this topic elsewhere, or if there is a project for this already, let's join forces! I will create the Wikidata:WikiProject Intangible Cultural Heritage project hopefully during the day today. – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) (talk) 13:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikidata weekly summary #426[edit]

Items left over after merge[edit]

Hello, @Pasleim is taking a wikibreak and his bots (either DeltaBot or PLbot) stopped fixing "leftover items" created due to this issue. As a result, empty items such as Alice Springs (Q112352028) are accumulating in Wikidata. Does anyone have any interim or long-term solution to this? It would be great to decrease the number of items with no sitelink and no statement. Thank you, Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 09:11, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like we need another bot operator for this job. Is Pasleim's source code publicly available? —MisterSynergy (talk) 09:51, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@MisterSynergy Yes, it seems to be this code: Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 10:01, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is this task a candidate for scheduled running as an automated cronjob on Toolforge's Kubernetes? I already run a pywikibot bot in that fashion and can advise on how to implement that, or do it myself, if required. William Avery (talk) 10:50, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@William Avery If you could, it would be great. I think it can be automated without further approval as it has been running like this for years and seems to have been approved as a bot job at one point. Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 11:13, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think a new task approval would be nice to have. The source code looks pretty dated, but I can try as well whether I could add this to my bot jobs. —MisterSynergy (talk) 11:44, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you both! Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 13:18, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay I could, but User:DeltaBot has become active again and this job was run today. Maybe User:Pasleim can report what the situation is. Anyways, the backlog of the past 30 days is cleared, but there is likely a period in May and maybe earlier that is not easily accessible anymore to look after as well. There is also another, similar job/script at which was also run today.
That said, many of the empty items that we currently have seem to be waiting for a deletion process. I think that the lack of DeltaBot activity is not the main reason why the number of empty items has grown so much. —MisterSynergy (talk) 23:44, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@MisterSynergy That's good news, happy to see that some redirects are now fixed. It is also true that older merges such as Q9992831 are not fixed any more. Is it possible to access history of items to see where they should be redirected to? For the remainder, I'd be in favor of a mass deletion (we cannot nominate these 11,000 items one by one) but it would be preferable to exclude items linked from a different item from the deletion request. Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 07:28, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The bot uses the recentchanges table of MediaWiki to find modified items that should be redirected. Since only revisions of the past 30 days are contained in that table, older edits are much more difficult to access. It's not impossible, but clearly more difficult.
  • Right now there seem to be two criteria that DeltaBot looks for:
    1. In, it looks for revisions where a sitelink has been removed. If the item has no more sitelinks and all former sitelinks have been migrated to the same target item (and the item passes a couple of additional background checks), then the item is merged with said target item.
    2. In, it looks for merge edits by other users that for some reason did not result in a redirect. This sometimes happens for reasons I cannot remember at the moment (but it's a known issue). DeltaBot simply completes these mergers.
  • Re. deletion: I am actually routinely looking after such items for quite a while, but a backlog of 11k is indeed a lot and this will take some time. We need more admins :-)
MisterSynergy (talk) 10:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@MisterSynergy I've scraped the query results to obtain the destination QIDs from the page histories. I've got about 1000 items where a merge attempt was made at User:Vojtěch_Dostál/to-merge. I hope it's mostly right (I've excluded items which had multiple merges in their page history). None of the tools I am using (QuickStatements, Wikibase-CLI) are able to do these merges, probably because they are empty items. Can you give it a go? Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 07:16, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Maybe you could do a further filter on those based on "last-edited" (these last edits should be all in the time window at the end of May). Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
These kind of jobs shouldn't be run under a personal bot account, but should be running under a shared account. That way if you can have multiple maintainers and it doesn't all depend on one person. Multichill (talk) 17:39, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Request for data import: US census surname information[edit]


Over at the English Wiktionary there is an ongoing discussion about surname frequency data, which is included on a number of pages (e.g. wikt:Alvarez#English).

It is quite simple to download and parse the whole US census surname data for 2010 [2] or 2000 [3] (warning: large files!). Could someone please import this into the system somehow so we can access it from a Lua module instead of hardcoding the stats on each page? 17:45, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Confusion of syndicalism (Q49780) and Category:Trade unions (Q6467567)[edit]

Based on wikilinks there seems to be some confusion between syndicalism (Q49780) and Category:Trade unions (Q6467567). I noticed this via something that came up on Commons, where a French-speaker had used commons:Category:Syndicalism (Q49780) where commons:Category:Trade unionism (Q6467567) would be more appropriate. But I see that syndicalism (Q49780) is linked to fr:Syndicalisme, which is more related to Q6467567, with the name being a false cognate. I doubt French is the only language where these links line up wrong. Also, commons:Category:Trade unionism might not line up entirely well with the concept represented by Q6467567, in that commons:Category:Trade unionism is perhaps more about activism than theory. Someone may wish to take this on. - Jmabel (talk) 23:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extracting Q numbers from a wikipedia category[edit]

I'm trying to ensure all Royal Navy ships have a vessel class (P289) property. shows there are 13 destroyers in the class, but WD only has one with value Tribal class destroyer (1905) (Q953894). How at the linux command line can I get set of Q numbers starting from a Wikipedia category page, so I can create the QuickStatments to add the vessel classes? I could do a wget and parse the output for pages, wget and parse each of them, but I guess this is a solved problem. Vicarage (talk) 13:40, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To answer my own question, as it was easier than I thought
curl -s "" > category.txt
grep HMS category.txt | grep href | sed -Ee 's`.*href="/proxy/[^"]*).*`\1`' > ships.txt
while read LINE; do
Q=$(curl -s$LINE | grep -i wikidata | grep sitelinks | sed -Ee 's`.*/(Q[^#]*).*`\1
echo "$Q|P289|Q812904 /* $LINE */"
done < ships.txt Vicarage (talk) 14:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Or you can use Petscan: [4] Ayack (talk) 14:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A third approach if you like the flexibility of command-line text manipulation tools, but would like to avoid the inefficiency of downloading entire pages and parsing them would be something like this:
Obtain the list of articles in the category from pywikibot, alternatively you can query the API instead, but pywikibot handles continuations on long lists. Then replace the values in a query like this, to do exact matching on all the article names in one go, to obtain the corresponding Q-IDs.
SELECT ?item ?itemLabel ?name ?article 
  VALUES ?name {
    "Keplers lover"@nb
    "Newtons bevegelseslover"@nb
    "Newtons gravitasjonslov"@nb
  ?article schema:name ?name;
    schema:about ?item; 
    schema:isPartOf <>.
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "nb,en". }
Try it!
Infrastruktur (talk) 22:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hard to find translation[edit]

Some of official language (Q23492) in Mexico (Q96) are Spanish (Q1321) and Nahuatl (Q13300). I wish to add the Nahuatl (Q13300) official name (P1448) in Mexico national football team (Q164089) but I can't find the translation... Is there someone that can kindly help me? Many, many and many thanks in advance!!! 2001:B07:6442:8903:5113:8223:C0A6:1A53 14:31, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can the stop route be marked on Wikivoyage?[edit]

No marked has appeared on Wikivoyage before, but Wikidata seems to list every station in the route, resulting in a large number of gray marks on the map of Wikivoyage, and also causing the lag situation to occur. Could it want to stop appearing with similar stations(gray marker)? Maybe Wikipedia needs this part, but we at Wikivoyage don't need it! thanks.(Example, please wait about 1 mins, the route have a gray marker, but this is from the marker points provided by wikidata, Wikivoyage don't need it) Yuriy kosygin (talk) 16:38, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Adjacent maps[edit]

Please see some questions I have raised at c:Commons:Village pump#Adjacent maps, about modelling the adjacency of map images in structured data. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:40, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Answered on Commons. Suggest shares border with (P47) with qualifier direction relative to location (P654), as used on items like Wem (OSD 326) (Q106156682) for maps in c:Category:Ordnance Survey Drawings.
This has allowed queries like Adjacency map of drawings in the category header; and could also allow a navigation template to let users click from map to map. Jheald (talk) 20:30, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]